Where do we go from here?

[Cyalaytr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by shatzy:

oh and... i liked this line:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by Cyalaytr:
Anyhow on with "is there a God or no God". I
grow up in a small town filled with 3 things:
churches, liquor stores and hotels.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

though i'm not sure if CYA meant it, i found
a vast webbing within that line. quite profound. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh but a tangled web we weave... filled with a life of many innuedno's like a cat chasing his tail or a gold fish with takes air from the water but surfaces to sample what he can not have.

Not to change the subject, but more so to add to it... what about all the days in church spent patting one another on the back, only then to not recongize your neighbor in the local bar on Sat night?

Or if God is all knowing and all powerful.... yet he/she plants a seed in an already married womans womb to grow a child for the sake of man and our salvation? Knowing only in the end that he must die so that we may live... in the hope to only die, with him. Hmmmmmmmm

Tangled it is...the web. Like a rose bush that was never trimmed. Or a heart wishing to live but having no reason.

CYA [img]eek.gif[/img]

[SHATOUSHKA]

anthony flew -- 'death of a thousand qualifications' [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

[KingBean]

Please dont expect either a) good typing b) good grammar or c) good arguments from this post.

Before I get into it, it'd probably be best for me to mention from the get-go that I'm not a christian, I don't believe in any form of higher being and I don't believe in an afterlife.

I think I should also point out that I rarely think about these things. I mean, yeah, I've got my views on it all... but these views are all along the lines of "there is no ___", which therefore voids any reason I might have to think / have conversation about this topic.

Anyway, let's go disco:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by GravyTrain:
Why are we here? when we are gone from this world, where do we go? What is your argument to the Christianity viewpoint of God being...well...God?</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's no reason as to why we're here, and once we're gone, we're not going anywhere. There is no mighty being whom oversees everything, bringing those who believe to Heaven with him whilst the non-believers perish.

Now, I've got no beef with people who believe that there is in fact a god, as long as they don't try to preach that to me and tell me about how I'm going to Hell for refusing their 'saviour'.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by shatzy:
imagine, just for a moment.... that you are not
here for any reason... period. and that when you
die, thats it. no big whoops, no shabangs... no
nothing.
then surely the value of the time you have is
increased significantly than having the buffer
of an afterlife or some other form of reward
for a job well done.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's how I choose to live my life; I don't believe in any supreme being, and I'm not gonna be doing much once my day comes. BUT... that doesn't increase my 'value' of the time I have.

Stop me if I'm missing your message Shatzy (it will be hard to stop me seeing that I'll be finished before you've read this, but still...), but what you're saying is that we should hold what time we have preciously... right?

I think what it does is create a 'pointlessness', a 'void' in people's lives that they desperately want filled. Hence, they turn to christ to fill the void and answer those tricky quesitons. "Oh it's okay god's in control, he's got it all planned out".

People shouldn't be turning to what is 'essentially' a cult to fill this gap... they should be searching for sometrhing that THEY can fill it with. Something other than the false hopes christianity holds.

---

okay well I don't think I've made much sense at all so far so i'm gonna call it quits with this post and post at another time..

Sorry guys, I just can't focus myself at the moment.

[gnosis_within]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma"> that's like saying busy work makes me feel like my job is worth something. that is so not the case. when i worked at a certain insurance company, i had to file and sort paper all the time, if that didn't get done, there would be no big, no shabangs, no nothing when i got done, or if i didn' get done. that did not make my job of filing any more fulfilling, it made it that much worse that my time was being wasted at something that meant nothing.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

good point, shows how right marx was when he said religion is the opiate of the masses. (most) people spend the majority of their lives working jobs they hate for too little pay....how long would things stay that way if they all realized that this life was all they had?

why are we here?

who cares? if your father told you today that he thought working with computers was a terrible way to make a living and that he wanted you to go work with elephants in the zoo, would you do it? of course not, you are living your own life, not his.
as for god's purpose in your life, how would he tell you what that was? from my own experience, "god's plan" for peoples lives seem to fit in nicely with their own desires, but perhaps i am too suspicious....
how would god's purpose give your life more value? your entire life is already planned, does that not bring about some despair?

where do we go when we die?

no one can answer this question because they haven't died. speculation is always fun, but it is not helpful in a rational debate.

what is your argument to the christianity viewpoint of god being...well...god?

ignoring the fact that christians have different views of god, i will address the one that i think you have.
let's begin with the characteristics of god:

1. he is infinite.
if he is infinite, then he can have no bounds, but this would lead into a sort of pantheism because god would have to be everything. most christians would not agree with that conclusion, so god must be finite.

2. he is omnipotent.
the regular claim brought up by the anti-religious is that if he is all-powerful, then he could stop all pain and suffering. since he does not, he must enjoy watching us suffer. "but pain and suffering were caused by adam and eve sinning in the garden, it isn't god's fault it is ours!" i have heard this argument given before, and i think it shows the psychological damage done by christianity. the idea of original sin is so absurd it takes some serious mental gymnastics to accept it. if your father killed someone, do you think it is right to force him to live for a time in order to have children so that they may be punished too? do you think it would be right to do this until the end of time?

3. he is all-loving.
this seems to be ruled out by the comments made above. "but parents love their children, and they do things that hurt them to teach them important lessons!" of course, if god were all-powerful and all-loving, he wouldn't create a world in which we all had to suffer. ask any parent, if they had complete control over their child's life, that child would never suffer.

4. he is omnipresent.
this is another psychological weapon that causes much trouble. that feeling of always being watched brings on immense guilt and shame. it is just a way of making sure children behave themselves away from mom and dad. imagine the chaos that would be brought to the face of the earth if children could live life free of the fear of god!

that's enough for god's characteristics, there are more, and if people want to discuss them, we can.

[GravyTrain]

All I can say is wow. Granted, i agree with very little of the comments posted thus far. I really really wish I had about an hour here at work to really do some thinking to respond to every single one of these posts. I am very excited and intrigued to read and discuss these views. This afternoon when I get off work, (well, first I have to go rent Tiger Woods 2003 for PS2), but then, I will be posting to all these responses. At first thought, I believe I am going to have to make a new post for ever response posted so far because I really do have so much to say. This is really incredible, and thank you all for your great arguments.

(side note to Shatzy: "I will post when others are scared to post their own views....boy were you wrong" [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] )

[SHATOUSHKA]

LOL... gravy you ass!
while i anticipated SOME response, there were
a few posters that i assumed would give a
different (more supportive to xtianity) view...
and then again, i figured most would avoid
this topic (with the exception of gnosis).

(i figured zela would post, but i wasn't sure
if he'd come to HB in time [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

i will admit that i think your comment (about
agreeing with little of what has been said)
is VERY interesting. i can't wait to hear your
word, gravy.

and don't worry about making several posts.
maybe you can print it all out and mesh it all
together. if it were me, i'd prolly make new
posts for each person i was talking to. but then
again, i have nothing better to do. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

i eagerly await your reply.

[zelazny]

to be quite honest, i was thinking about posting, but i'm really really busy, and i felt that i had to make a really really good posting for this thread, which i wasn't really feeling up to.
Actually, i still have to make one, but give me some time [img]smile.gif[/img]

[GravyTrain]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">I do sympathize with them for have such strong commitment that they are willing to die for someone that they have never seen or touched. I have no such commitment to any one god though a few people have touched me enough in life that I think I could say I have spent enough time here if it allowed them to spend more.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not look for sympathy for anybody about my beliefs. I do however sympathize for those who are not willing to beleive, (see post in response to PI for more detail). Please, I am not trying to force my belief on anyone, but I do feel sorry for those who do not believe in God (assuming there is a God). I will agree with the 2nd part of your statement. That is what makes Jesus' death so important in my beliefs. He died for people, not only that He did not know personally, but He died for people that had not even been born yet, myself being included in that group of people.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">But the irony is if you ask any religion most of them will answer that they are the only ones who will live in Heaven or what ever their religion believes when it is all said and done.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

But this is not always the case. For example, I attend a Souther Baptist church, but I have the beliefs of a non-denominationl Christian. I have attended various baptist churches, and I agree and I disagree with differning views. I grew up in a Methodist believing family. I was too young to understand what was going on, but there are definitely things about that religion that I don't agree with. Just b/c I disagree with some of their teachings, doesn't mean that I don't think they will spend eternity in heaven with me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">To me and all the different friends I have made and dwelling in those differences so much so to analyze why I am the way I am... I could never imagine life without those who have helped make me the person I am now. They are not all Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, etc...</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could not agree more with this statement. Differences are what makes the world go around. (please don't take that out of context, of course in my opinion, God makes the world go 'round)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">They speak of God giving free will. To chose to live or die... To help or hurt... To kill or to live. Yet any time you make a person choice in life usually the 1st people to complain are the people in church.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Church members are humans, what can I say. Not everyone is able to see things outside of their own environment. But not everyone is like that. Like just mentioned above, everyone is different.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">For if they are out to save the world. Convert the ones who don't know or haven't given their lives to Christ... then, outside the Mormans (though I hate when they wake me from sleep on the weekend banging on the door) who is out there doing God's work???</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you never heard of missionaries? my church alone helps support somewhere in the neighborhood of roughly at least 10 seperate missionaries, if not more. What about Vacation Bible School? that is a definite outreach program to the children of a churches immediate surroundings. Although I am sure you haven't heard of it, what about AWANA? a international program with the entire goal of spreading the Gospel of Christ and teaching others about our beliefs. In my opinion, the Mormons, although the most outgoing religion when it comes to outreach programs, are forcing their beliefs much more than others. (not to say one way is better than the other). but to say that they are the only one "doing God's work" that is just insane.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">HMMMM I would say "No", from an outsider's point of view. I don't practice religion. I don't attend any church. I don't prey when bad things happen or give thanks when good things come around the bend.

But do I wish there was a God (to me)? "Yes" In a world filled with hate, war, and so many questions and no answers. Having a new child I want to see grow and develop into an adult and hope that somewhere down the line I can answer why the stars are in the sky or just why....</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you wish there were a God, then why not believe, as I stated in my response to PI, I don't see where anything bad can come out of believing in God.

[GravyTrain]

I apologize, but that is all I have for now. King Bean and Fibonacci, I have not forgotten about you, I just don't have time to make the type of reply your posts requires. But, i will get to them in time.

[SmokinLizzies]

It's nearly 2:30am, I can't retain all this right now. I'll read it some other time. However, I will make my view point and keep it short and sweet.

Jesus died on the cross for you.